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The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen “Breadman” Edwards tackling topics such as Naoya Inoue moving up to face Stephen Fulton, Artur Beterbiev vs. Anthony Yarde, Errol Spence vs. Terence Crawford, and more.
Hey Mr Edwards,
Greetings and allow me to just pick your colossal boxing brain this time. Ken Porter is comfortable to have his son fight a pitched battle with Errol Spence Jr for 12 rounds but rescues him from serious harm against Terrence Crawford. Yet, in his opinion, Jaron “Boots” Ennis beats Crawford but not Spence. Well, Porter deserves respect for guiding his son’s boxing career and for the work he does as trainer of US Olympic hopefuls, but what he suggests herein is plain ridiculous, in my view. What do you think? What has Terrence Crawford ever done to these guys whose sole ambition in life appears to be to undermine his ability and legacy?
On to my next point. Are there more gullible boxing fans in the world than the British? A faded Sergey Kovalev knocks out Anthony Yarde with a jab and, suddenly, Yarde is going to strip Artur Beterbiev of his titles. How does that work, given how heavy-handed Beterbiev is? Yarde has been an average professional while Beterbiev is top 10 in light-heavyweight history. But that’s not the biggest problem Yarde has. Excuse me if I’m wrong Mr Edwards but is the gulf in amateur experience really not the big problem for Yarde in this fight?
On to my next point. I have not sensed you out on this but, quite apart from the business upside, don’t you think exhibitions like Floyd Mayweather does and cross-over fights like Mayweather-Conor McGregor undermine the credibility and prestige of boxing? I know this is an old problem (Muhammad Ali v Antonio Inoki; George Foreman taking on 5 opponents in one night etc), but isn’t boxing going to die a slow death? Almost like weeds encroaching upon and strangling good plants? Finally, I’ve forgotten to ask you this question many times. I know how you feel about the ending of Julio Cesar Chavez v Meldrick Taylor 1. But is that not preferable to the ending of Aaron Pryor v Alexis Arguello 1? Our own Stanley Christodoulou refereed the latter fight and I have just been as critical of him as you have been of the referee of Chavez v Taylor 1. Don’t you think Christodoulou’s delay in stopping that fight affected Arguello in the rematch? In other words, Arguello never really recovered from those final, unnecessary punches. I mean, he was a shell in the rematch. Do you agree?
MM – Marcel Cerdan v Marvelous Marvin Hagler. I am 100% behind you when you say an incomplete career sometimes elevates fighters more than should be the case. Would I be correct that Cerdan’s plane crash and curtailed career make him out to have been a far greater champion than he actually proved? Who do you favour in this matchup?
Keep punching Mr Edwards.
Katlholo Johannesburg, South Africa.
Bread’s Response: I honestly have seen enough of Cerdan’s full fights to say if he could beat Hagler, who is in my opinion a top 3-5 middleweight ever. I don’t really the blame the ref in the Pryor vs Arguello fight. Yes Arguello was a shell of himself in the rematch. But he was a 70+ fight veteran in 1983. That’s a ton of fights for that era. He took some big shots in the first fight even before the stoppage. I think the stoppage was fair considering what was at stake. The referee gave Arguello a chance to try to fight out of trouble and he couldn’t and when the referee saw that, he stopped the fight.
I also believe we should question what was in the “bottle”. As big of a fan as I am of Aaron Pryor, Panama Lewis is vile. He has no integrity and there is no doubt in my mind he cheated. I’ve heard many rumors and the rumors I don’t believe was it something innocent to stop diarrhea in the bottle.
You love Terence Crawford so therefore when someone has a less than stellar opinion of his hypothetical match up with Errol Spence, it seems to offend you. I know lots of people who believe Spence is the harder match up for Ennis. In fact Team Ennis has stated they believe Spence is the harder matchup. I wouldn’t get worked up over that.
First off, it’s just speculation. It doesn’t mean it’s true. It also doesn’t mean that Spence can beat Crawford. Who matches up better with Ennis, doesn’t mean much when they fight each other. All fighters are different. They all have to fight for us to see and I wouldn’t waste brain cells thinking about who’s the harder match up in the triangle theory.
The British have had some tough luck historically in boxing. But it’s good to be optimistic and loyal as a fan base. If they were cynical they wouldn’t be the British. I don’t know if Beterbiev is a top 10 light heavyweight ever but he’s a great light heavyweight and I agree with you that Yarde is up against it. It’s just a tough match up for Yarde. He’s talented but Beterbiev’s boxing foundation has so much more depth, that barring a Sunday punch or freak injury, I feel like Yarde has a rough night ahead of him. But this is why they fight the fights. Let’s see the young man step up to the plate and try to pull it off. He has a right to believe in himself and so do his UK fans.
Hi Bread,
I was watching some old fights on YouTube and stumbled onto Patterson v Liston 1 and 2. I’ve only known Liston as the guy Ali (Cassius Clay at that time) annihilated to become the heavyweight champion, but the fights with Patterson were interesting. Patterson looked like a smaller version of Mike Tyson; squared stance, constant head movement, etc. Not surprising as both Patterson and Tyson were trained by Cus D’Amato. There was a noticeable size difference between Liston and Patterson. Liston looks like a much bigger man and Patterson just couldn’t take the power coming at him. But it made me wonder how Liston would have done against Mike Tyson. What do you think? It’s too bad Liston never got to fight Marciano or Ezzard Charles, any thoughts on those matchups? Thanks for your insights! Love reading your mailbag, it is a weekend staple.
Best Wishes, Dave
Bread’s Response: Sonny Liston was a great, great fighter. He had a big time punch, great jab, great chin and solid fundamentals. If the press had been fair with him during his reign they would’ve recognized him as a top 5 ever heavyweight at that time. But they were biased against him because of his appearance and lifestyle.
I think Liston would’ve been a little too big and too fresh for Ezzard Charles if they fought in the late 50s. Charles had slid far from his best days and Liston was really peaking. Marciano and and Liston would’ve been a savage fight. I would’ve loved to see it. It’s a pick em.
What makes Muhammad Ali so special is, he stopped two heavyweight reigns that changed history. Sonny Liston’s and George Foreman’s. If Ali doesn’t beat Foreman in 1974, there was only 1 heavyweight who emerged in that decade that could’ve possibly beaten Foreman and that’s Larry Holmes. If Ali doesn’t beat Liston in 1964, no heavyweight in the decade could’ve possibly beaten him except Joe Frazier who just turned pro in 1964, which is no guarantee because the style match up favors Liston.
Hey Bread,
Although there has been dampened enthusiasm with Spence going up to 154 and possibly not coming back down. I hope he & Crawford can still fight even if it’s at 154. Crazy that SRL fought 36-0 Ayub Kalule at JMW then came back down & fought Hearns at WW 3 months later. Only thing is I think Crawford would be at a disadvantage fighting Spence the naturally bigger man at 154, but I could see PBC finally making the fight happen because it’s an advantage for Spence. I think Crawford should fight Danny Garcia at 154 in the meantime and the winner fights Spence/Thurman. It’s a sellable fight with the talented Bud and durable DSG. Plus it would close out their era and mirror the 4 kings of the 80s. Also I think Boots is gonna be fine, just an off night. Boxing fans are extremely cynical. However who are some heavily hyped fighters in history that looked all world and came down to earth in a tough win and would soon take a loss afterwards and would never be the same? Thanks for your time and god bless you and your family.
Bread’s Response: I hope Spence vs Crawford also happens. But the 154lb fight may be a monkey wrench in the plans if Spence looks great, decides to stay at 154lbs and Crawford refuses to move up 154lbs and make the fight. Who knows…Let’s just see what happens.
Boots will sharpen his blade and come back better. That fight will make him better. Everyone has that night and the special ones improve. It’s only a big deal to people who make it a big deal and are looking to find fault in everybody.
Dear Breadman, You answered last week the question – perhaps not the sharpest one – about last Rashidi Ellis’ fight. This fight was a food for thought really. Ellis, technically, should have won 1st 8 rounds on scorecards, the 9th was a swing one, lets give the rest (including the 9th) to Villa = 114:112 to Ellis. I must admit that I prefer Ellis style but I did not favour anyone before fight as had not really seen them before. Now the point: even for me the score did not feel wrong (which does not mean it wasn’t). Because how the last round played out when Ellis was nearly knocked out it felt a kind just… but it was not. Mathematics is more just than feelings.Then 2 fights came to my mind that I had similar feelings about: Gassiev – Lebedev & Taylor – Prograis – well, I would score both a draw but a feeling was that actually winners were right ones as they made respective opponents fight their (of the winners) fights. Could you comment on this discrepancy what sometimes we may feel and what sport scoring really should be? This would be not only a lesson for me but also for many, a bit too-biased, fans. Many thanks, Marek (from Kraków, at least originally)
Bread’s Response: Great question. People are just not good with math. Seriously, they say things like the 10-7 round makes it impossible for Ellis to win etc etc. Math! If Ellis wins 7 rounds and get dropped twice, then that means the score is 113-113 a draw! I don’t even take the time to explain this to people because I’m getting gray hairs talking boxing.
But here it is. 10+10+10+10+10+10+10+9+9+9+9+7=113
So if a fighter wins 7 rounds, he still can get a draw if he gets dropped twice. Sort of like Tyson Fury in his 1st fight with Deontay Wilder.
Now here is the issue with all of this. People judge fights on who finishes the strongest. Or who hurts the opponent the most. Although they are factors, a fight is judged on 12 separate rounds. Not a BIG 36 minute fight. Judges turn their scorecards in AFTER each round and rounds are NOT supposed to have carry over effect but they do. In fights I am willing to bet, statistically a fighter who hurts their opponent or drops their opponent overwhelmingly wins the very NEXT round on the official scorecard. It’s because of the carry over. In the Ellis fight there was no carry over because he was dropped in the last round but him losing seemed justified to many because of the ending.
I was there live. I didn’t have a pen and pad. The ending was exciting but my initial feeling was too little, too late for Villa. I thought Ellis had too big of a lead but in fairness to the judges I wasn’t scoring it. Often times we can think a fighter is sweeping the cards but it’s hard to win more than 3 rounds in a row. Judges start awarding comparison rounds and I think that’s what bit Ellis. It looked like he won the first 8 rounds but obviously Villa snuck in a few close ones which changed the outcome.
Hey Breadman,
Much appreciated for the weekly column! Haney is supposedly fighting Loma on May 20th, now we all know this could change or even fall apart but my question is about training someone for a fight after Ramadan. Ramadan is likely to be March 22nd to April 21nd and its not uncommon for Muslim boxers not to fight until 6+ weeks after Ramadan, so that date would be a tight turnaround. How would you go about training a fighter 4 weeks after Ramadan? When would you start a camp, your weight cut strategy, would you train at different times of the day, would it be a significant hindrance or is it surmountable? In case no-one asks, how do you see Eubank Jr. Vs L Smith going this weekend? It’s a PPV fight in the UK!
Darns, London
Bread’s Response: I have trained a fighter during Ramadan, multiple times. What we did was simply train after sunset and before sunrise. We trained at night after 830pm and then ran about 4am in the morning. It’s tough because obviously dieting is the issue. Fueling your body correctly is the hardest thing to do because of the limited time you have to eat but it can be done. We have done it. It just takes planning and total execution especially from the fighter.
The fighter has to rest when he can’t eat so it doesn’t weaken him. He has to eat and drink properly when he’s supposed to. It’s not ideal for training but it can build mental fortitude. It takes special discipline to pull it off correctly.
I personally know some Muslim fighters who fast during Ramadan. And I know others who make up the fasting days after their fights. Personally it doesn’t matter to me because dedication to religion is not something to debate about, as long as the fighter is fully dedicated 100%.
First, Hope all is well with you and the family. Second, I was recently watching some of Mike Tyson’s old fights and was particularly paying attention to Tyson’s jab. He had a particular movement and timing with it. Early on it was being used to get inside the opponents reach to land the left hook or right upper cut. By the Tucker/Biggs fights, he was using to box with while coming forward. You mind elaborating on Tyson’s jab and other punches?
Bread’s Response: Mike Tyson was one of the most talented and dynamic offensive fighters in the history of boxing. He had an even handed attack to the head and body. He had ultra fast hands and he had an elite jab. People who think height and reach are the end all when it comes to a jab are just misinformed. Tyson’s jab was elite. It was fast. It came from lower to higher and he twisted it to get full extension.
He also slipped as the taller opponents jabbed and either jabbed to the head or chest. I think the reason for Tyson’s slippage was simply conditioning and getting away from the things that built him. Skill is the something you have to practice over and over and over. And when you get away from the things that built you, changing trainers, layoffs, personal issues etc it erodes the skillset. At his best from 85-89 Tyson was as good as a shorter offensive in the history of boxing.
Hi Bread,
I’ve been reading the bag every week back since it’s inception on BT. I’ve got great respect for your insights and perspective, especially the historical angle that you bring which is so important for today’s fans and athletes to understand.My question is this: from a technical and strategic standpoint, is there ever a time when you advise a fighter not to jab? I understand that jabs can be countered as every punch can. However I would think that if the jab is being countered and/or defended – an athlete would do better in changing the distance/timing/speed/rhythm/angle and using more feints. I don’t believe you should ever give up on or dispense with the jab.Am I wrong? Any examples you can think of when it was somehow better to give up on using the jab?
Respect,
Andrew Slattery
Daniel’s Boxing Club
Anchorage, Alaska USA
Bread’s Response: Man this is a great question. Although the jab is the most important punch in boxing, it doesn’t mean you can’t think outside of the box when it comes to the jab. I actually have instructed my fighter to not jab so much. It wasn’t planned but I did it because of the expectations of the fight.
Julian Williams was fighting Marcello Matano in an IBF eliminator in 2016. I felt like he was winning the fight so easy that the fight was falling into the BORING category and Williams would have cruised to a decision if he would’ve kept keeping Matano at bay with the jab because Matano was fighting a tepid fight and he accepted not being able to get inside. So I told Williams at the end of the 6th or 7th round to stop jabbing and give Matano a false sense security. Let him come inside and catch counter him with hooks and uppercuts and get the ko without trying to FORCE it on an unwilling opponent.
I didn’t want Williams to take criticism for not stopping an inferior opponent. And I felt safe letting Matano come inside because he couldn’t punch. Williams caught Matano with the a catch and counter hook and stopped him shortly after it.
It was the first and last time I instructed a fighter to not jab. I never thought I would instruct a fighter to not jab but my instincts told me to do so and I did it. It’s why I never say never in boxing. It’s why it’s no right or wrong way to do things because it’s all meant to work, it’s just about the execution of the fighter. It’s why I don’t criticize Roy Jones for hooking more than he jabbed because his eyes and instincts allowed him to be just as effective than a jabber. It’s why I don’t criticize Ali for not body punching often. Ali did body punch but it was basically a quick straight body punch and he did it infrequently because of how he was anatomically and how he saw the fight. So he found a way to WEAKEN opponents by jabbing them with that snappy spinning jab that snapped the neck and weakened the spine. And made opponents nauseous. There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Thank you for this question.
I think the International Boxing Hall Of Fame should create a special ATG category. I think it would appease to the people who complain that it’s too easy to get into the HOF. They could go back and retrospectively put a vote to the boxers who they deem worthy into the ATG category and leave the HOF where they are, and going forward have the same process.
What do you think? Do you like this idea?
Bread’s Response: I love this question and this idea. I agree with you 100%. I feel like the awards in sports are more popularity contest and how often a person “supported” events than actually who earned their status. Even rankings with the sanctioning bodies. So many fighters are unworthy of their rankings but because they show up to conventions and buy dinner plates they get ranked.
As far as the HOF I have defended fighters like Arturo Gatti who I wholeheartedly believe is a HOF. People bring up who would’ve beaten him and how vulnerable he was. But Gatti was a helluva fighter at 130lbs. He has some real wins overall over Tracy Patterson, James Leija, Wilson Rodriguez, Gabe Ruelas, Leonard Dorin, Micky Ward and Terron Millett.
Gatti won his 1st title in 1995 and lost his last title in 2005. That’s a decade for an action fighter who had some of the best fights I have ever seen vs Ward, Robinson, Manfredy, Rules, Patterson, Rodriguez and Hutchinson. In my opinion it’s absurd to think Gatti is NOT a HOF. I don’t like bringing up comparisons but Gatti has done more than 30% of the fighters in the HOF. But Gatti is not an ATG fighter. He’s not close to being one. He not even a great fighter in my opinion. He’s a great action fighter, with a unique appeal in terms of producing great fights. I love your idea.
I find myself putting fighters in specific categories silently. For example I think being an ATG in your specific weight division is different from being ATG overall. Like Terry Norris in my opinion is an ATG 154lb fighter but he’s not quite an ATG overall fighter. I believe Hearns, McCallum and Griffin the other 154lb standouts, rank above Norris as overall fighters but Norris was good as it gets at 154lbs.
I even think about Contemporary Great Fighters. Guys are who are above just HOF fighters, but not quite ATG fighters. I go back and forth with Miguel Cotto. I rate Cotto really high. Cotto and De La Hoya are the only fighters in history to have won the Junior Welterweight title and Middleweight title. And Cotto won the lineal MW title in a much more convincing fashion than Oscar did.
Cotto is one of the best fighters ever out of PR. I think he’s better than Camacho. I think he’s had a better career than Benitez although I’m not so sure if he’s a better fighter. I think he’s slightly behind Trinidad, Gomez and Ortiz who all have cases for being the best PR fighters. Cotto is not quite Pacquiao and Mayweather in the ATG status. Head to head, Oscar and Tito probably beat him. But his accomplishments are on par with Tito and Oscar.
I don’t know if Cotto is an ATG but he’s certainly on the CUSP and he’s definitely a Contemporary Great. Meaning he’s one of the best 10-20 fighters over a significant time span. I’m not suggesting that the IBHOF come up with a Contemporary Great category. That may be overkill. But I definitely believe there should be an ATG category. Boxing has been around since the 1800s. And there are more and more fighters to consider. The more time goes on, the larger the field the fighter has to be considered against and the more a fighter who was not elected right away has to compete against. So an extra category for clarity helps. Another great comment. Thank you.
I was wondering how you believe these boxers will perform in their new weight classes: Naoya Inoue at 122, Gary Russell at 130/135 (he’s undecided) and Errol Spence at 154 (assuming he stays there). Thank you so much!
Bread’s Response: I can’t really say…Inoue started at 108lbs and it seems his first fight is vs Stephen Fulton at 122lbs. That’s a tall order considering Fulton is big for the weight and he started out at 122lbs. I thought Inoue looked considerably smaller than Nonito Donaire who is not as imposing as Fulton.
Gary Russell is super talented but I haven’t seen him fight over 126lbs. He’s short for a featherweight but height is the end all. I would have to see if he went to 130lbs or 135lbs. The 135lber are big in this era…
My guess is Errol Spence would be the most comfortable at his new weight. Spence was the USA’s best amateur at 152lbs from 2009-12. So he’s due to move up to 154lbs. I think 7lbs of muscle, carbs and calories would enhance Spence.
Bread, If Tyson vs Douglas and Foreman vs Ali had immediate rematches let’s say 6 months later in the United States. Would the outcomes be any different.
Kino
New York, New York
Bread’s Response: I don’t know…..See Douglas seemed to fight over his head. He was never that good before or after. But Tyson never sought revenge. I felt like Tyson should’ve righted that wrong and by the rematch never happening even when Douglas made a comeback makes me think Douglas may have had his number. Who knows….
Ali fought a fight vs Foreman in the rope a dope that I don’t think he could’ve done again. That was a one off. It wasn’t luck but he wouldn’t have been able to surprise Foreman with that style again. The issue is Foreman didn’t look right after Ali stopped him. His body didn’t look as firm. He had life and death with Ron Lyle. He boxed more. He accused his team of all kinds of foul play. He was just really defeated mentally. So while Ali was older and closer to the end, Foreman was damaged mentally after he fought Ali.
Keeping it simple. If Inoue beats Fulton how great is he? If Loma beats Haney how great is he?
All the best – Sam
Bread’s Response: If Inoue beats Stephen Fulton. He’s the 2nd best Asian fighter ever behind Manny Pacquioa. He’s the greatest fighter ever from Japan. He’s an ATG. He’s top 10 ever 122lbs and lower. And he’s the leading candidate for the fighter of the decade of the 2020s.
If Loma beats Haney, he’s an ATG. He’s top 3 ever from the old USSR region. He’s a top 5 southpaw ever. These are both very significant historical fights.
Assalaam alaykum Mr Edwards,
I wanted to get your thoughts on the agreed upon (but not finalized) matchup between two fighters who I view as currently on the fringe of top pound for pound status (but probably not number 1). I think both men deserve tremendous credit for this fight being made. Loma has ALWAYS wanted the smoke. The fact that he’s going after an undisputed champion in his fighting prime who may outweigh him by as much as 20 pounds in the ring is unbelievable, but it’s also what he’s done almost every fight since he left the featherweight division.However, Haney also deserves a ton of credit for holding all the belts (and most of the negotiating leverage) and still not forcing the Ukrainian to give up every advantage. Specifically, the Dream is a practicing Muslim and he’s agreed to this fight with approximately only 30 days after he ends the fast for Ramadan.
Not eating or drinking anything from first light (which will be before 5:00 am in Las Vegas at the end of Ramadan) until sundown (which will be after 7:00 pm) is a challenge in itself. The fact that Haney requested a date before the start of the fast, didn’t get it, and still signed the contract deserves praise. The purpose of the fast is to weaken the hold of the appetite on the self and to maintain consciousness and mindfulness of Allah. It’s not something that an observant Muslim (which Haney is) can readily train through, particularly for something like a fight. This puts Haney at something of a disadvantage, potentially a considerable disadvantage. It’s also something that I can see a number of the best fighters of recent decades refusing to accommodate in order to make a fight with a first ballot hall of famer, possibly an underrated all time great.
Let’s give the men their due credit. How do you feel about the fight? What do you think of the men who will step in the ring at this point in their careers? I think Haney should probably be the favorite, probably 65/35, but if Loma is in his top form and not injured, he’s more than a live underdog. Thank you again for everything you do for this sport and for the readers of the mailbag. I sincerely hope that this finds you and your family well and I send the very best.
Peace,John
Bread’s Response: Devin Haney wants smoke. I can honestly say in my heart of hearts that my guts tell me he would fight anyone at 135lbs. The reason he hasn’t fought bigger names is because of them, not because of him. I never bought into the BIAS media who called him the EMAIL Champion. He was the #1 contender and mandatory and he exercised his legal right to face Lomachenko. Lomachenko chose to unify vs Teofimo Lopez. That’s not Haney’s fault. He wanted a belt and was willing to fight for it. Lomachenko chose not to fight him. I don’t believe Loma ducked him because he fought an equally talented fighter in Lopez. But he still chose not to fight him at that time.
The media somehow made fun of Haney for a decision that Loma made. I also give Loma major credit. People bring up the fact that he has 2 losses. But he’s 13-2 in title fights through 3 divisions. To put that in perspective the great Marvin Hagler was 13-1-1 in title fights through 1 division. Loma has been rumbling hard for his entire career and his 2 losses were both highly competitive. I feel like Haney is just too big, too young, too fast, too fresh and too long. Haney would be a welterweight in the same day weigh in era.
Loma is 34, he’s had plenty of tough fights and if you’re honest, he’s not the same guy he was before the Linares fight. Linares gave a career best performance in that loss to Loma. And he forced Loma to leave a piece of himself in the ring that night. Loma is strong but his stature is undersized for 135lbs fighters who are routinely between 5’7-5’9 and with 70 inch reaches who walk around over 160lbs. So where Loma could wear down and stop fighters at 126-130, he’s routinely forced to go the distance 135lbs. The reason for this is the stature and physicality of the opponents along with Loma’s age.
In Haney he’s not dealing with a big puncher but he’s dealing with a BIG man. I expect Haney to win a decision. What you said about Ramadan is true but we don’t know if Haney will be fasting. He may make up for the days after the fight. He may do service in his community. Who knows….
I haven’t read or heard him say he will fast during camp with Loma. Remember he’s not even supposed to take water during sparring if he spars during the day while Ramadan is going on. Haney’s size and weight cut are well known around boxing. So to fast during a fight of this significance would show monumental dedication to his religion because it would surely effect his performance in camp. But until we hear about his choice, I can’t really say.
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